Curse

upier · Jul 29, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

EDIT:
Ohai, I'm a mesmer.

As I've said to Kosta - visit the German district at GoA.
Cryway is hothothot!

On topic:
We are dealing with a PvE-only ELITE skill.
And the announcement suggested that it will still work if used intelligently.
Which to me suggests we might see a toned down Ursan but still godly enough to blow up PvE.
I mean TNTF is "balanced" when it comes to PvE.

Earth · Jul 29, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

As I've said to Kosta - visit the German district at GoA.
Cryway is hothothot!

On topic:
We are dealing with a PvE-only ELITE skill.
And the announcement suggested that it will still work if used intelligently.
Which to me suggests we might see a toned down Ursan but still godly enough to blow up PvE.
I mean TNTF is "balanced" when it comes to PvE.

What announcement where?

jimmyboveto · Jul 29, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ever divided by zero?

That's pretty much what's going to happen.

And it'll be awesome.

And god said thou shalt never divide by zero.

Alex the Great · Jul 29, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I don't consider weakning ursan a nerf.

I consider it a buff to every other skill in the game.

$0.02 deposited

Karate Jesus · Jul 29, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Anet knows better than to nerf Ursan to death. They will probably just do a "down-grade" on it. People will still run Ursanway groups in elite areas, it will just require more skill to do soon (and better monks).

upier · Jul 29, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

What announcement where?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena...dates/20080710

Quote:

One of the goals is to balance Ursan such that players can still use it as long as they do so in a tactical way.

Shadowmoon · Jul 29, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

them nerfing ursan and leaving the imbagon alone is wishful thinking, they are probably both getting hit. i can see SY having Str attitube required, similar to critical agility, seed of left, and TNTF.
I think the holy trinity will return, except for some variants, rangers and rits playing splinter barrager in place of a nuker, a perma sin running primary tank. But unfortanately, pugs never go for the variant, just the cookie cutter.

Bryant Again · Jul 29, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On topic:
We are dealing with a PvE-only ELITE skill.
And the announcement suggested that it will still work if used intelligently.
Which to me suggests we might see a toned down Ursan but still godly enough to blow up PvE.

If used correctly and professionally, then yes it should be able to "blow up" PvE - as it should be. You shouldn't have any problem blowing stuff up if you're a good player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I mean TNTF is "balanced" when it comes to PvE.

Because the AI baddies just as smart as the players, right?

Teutonic Paladin · Jul 29, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Anet knows better than to nerf Ursan to death. They will probably just do a "down-grade" on it. People will still run Ursanway groups in elite areas, it will just require more time to do soon (and better monks).

Fixed 12 chars

darkdreamr · Jul 29, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The reason the Trinity works is because the monsters aren't aware of the other players. If you could make them aware of all characters within the group as soon as someone aggros them, then you may've fixed something.

Absolutely you need a much better aggro system and monster AI. Tanking in GW is managed by what, standing still and body blocking while the rest of your team stays at the fringe of spell range and makes you invincible? Aggro is determined by what, who has the lowest HP and is the closest?

In World of Warcraft, the aggro system was extremely well done with different skills causing different amounts of threat to the monsters, who then would refuse to be bodyblocked and hulk smash your healer unless the tank kept aggro through a variety of both active and passive tanking skills. Unlike GW where all the tanking skills (read: Dolyak Signet) are passive.

What's the point? The point is that in this system, all other classes are allowed to participate, assassins, rangers, even mesmers are capable of big damage, even big AoE damage, as well as utility and the ability to spike important enemies down quickly. This is possible because you don't have to worry about losing aggro with a good tank.

Lastly you need some profession balance. You need to get rid of Meteor Shower, a skill that makes all other nukes pale in comparison. You need to let rits be comparable to monks when it comes to red bars go up, you need to let paras be comparable to monks when it comes to partywide prot. I kinda think Anet tried to do this...by making massive enchant removal in hard areas they tried to push chants and weapon spells I think. But really what happened was monks were turned into ridiculous HB healing spam. That ability needs to be curtailed, and then we will be closer to having variety in healing, tanking, and nuking.

Bryant Again · Jul 29, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

Absolutely you need a much better aggro system and monster AI. Tanking in GW is managed by what, standing still and body blocking while the rest of your team stays at the fringe of spell range and makes you invincible? Aggro is determined by what, who has the lowest HP and is the closest?

In World of Warcraft, the aggro system was extremely well done with different skills causing different amounts of threat to the monsters, who then would refuse to be bodyblocked and hulk smash your healer unless the tank kept aggro through a variety of both active and passive tanking skills. Unlike GW where all the tanking skills (read: Dolyak Signet) are passive.

The thing with WoW is that tanking was intentional. I'm sure ANet assumed Warriors would be able to take a beating, but not all of the beating. The fact that they have neglected to fix this for years is pretty troubling. You can tell they tried to address it with UB, but through all the wrong ways.

Shadowmoon · Jul 29, 2008, 06:14 PM // 18:14

wow aggro system was horrible, a tank was best effective at holding aggro of just one mob, most of the time you disabled the other mob so you only fought them one at a time. At least with this system you can hold multiple mobs at a time. If a wow system of threat was put in this game, it would not work because this game doesn't use disabling mechanics to control what is pulled.

Bryant Again · Jul 29, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Whoooa, we're not asking for a better aggro system. We're asking for *no* aggro system. GW ain't no MMO.

And this guy would like to talk to you about multi-target Warrior tanking.

kostolomac · Jul 29, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

In World of Warcraft, the aggro system was extremely well done with different skills causing different amounts of threat to the monsters, who then would refuse to be bodyblocked and hulk smash your healer unless the tank kept aggro through a variety of both active and passive tanking skills. Unlike GW where all the tanking skills (read: Dolyak Signet) are passive.

The aggro system of WoW is terrible , you only need to press a skill to attract a monster. Maybe it's practical , but it certainly isn't more logical than GW's.

The biggest damage dealers attract the most aggro , that's why warriors and other physicals have the best dps (don't start a discussion about it pls) , thus the monsters hit the warriors and not the squishies. The monsters will attack their highest treat (read: the ones that damage them the most). Makes much more sense than WoW's aggro system.

Also , I'm angry at A.net for one less mesmer elite

Why not just use this occasion to make elite likeConfusion or Mirror of Delusions?

About ursan , A.net should just make so that an good non ursan team clears an area faster than the ursan team.

Ate of DK · Jul 29, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Anet's great way of pretending that everything is balanced.

Suddenly deciding that they should look into it when hundreds of QQ threads were made for months on the matter.

Then concluding that it needs to be balanced.

Waiting another months before actualy doing something just like other announcements that they made.

I really hope they don't plan on doing this kind of stuff when GW2 is released. But before that time, D3 will rock.

Kusandaa · Jul 29, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Anet likes to go for the extreme, IMO. Either a skill is effective or it's not at all. So you have overused skills like Meteor Shower... and then you have water magic which AFAIK people don't use unless they need snares.

I can only guess it's going to be the same with Ursan - I'll be honestly surprised if there's a middle between the OP'ed version we currently have, and the "nerfed to death" version. In any case, people wil be unhappy and will whine. However, even if they nerf it to oblivion... who bets that ursan teams are still gonna form up anyways, just because it's mindless and doesn't require any thought to form a build to run?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The thing with WoW is that tanking was intentional. I'm sure ANet assumed Warriors would be able to take a beating, but not all of the beating. The fact that they have neglected to fix this for years is pretty troubling.

Indeed. I don't really know how to explain it, but you have offense and defense, you just can't afford using both, given you have limited attribute points and skills in your bar. You can't do an ele that's going to protect himself really good while pumping damage - you then have buff/healing classes (just logged off L2, sorry, hehe)... whose damage output is minimal or nonexistent (heal monk).

- Limited party members
- Limited skills on your bar
- Limited attribute points

You're obviously not going to make an ele invincible within a group, but he's barely able to defend himself besides kiting. However, you cannot keep aggro on a single target unless you're outside the tank's aggro range...

It makes sense kinda for GW, yet lacks aggro-managing skills. You want your nukers to be effective, but if the tank looses aggro and cannot get it back, at least in GW you can kite effectively. It's your only defense UNLESS you have active buffs/prots/etc... from someone else.

I mean, it FITS for GW's concept... but could use a bit of tweaking IMO.

R.Shayne · Jul 29, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

If you look at past performance I don't think ANET knows how to down grade a skill. If they nerf Ursan it will most likely be unusable afterwards. The QQ's will cheer just like they did with Shadow Form and the farmers (ones without any skill) will do what 3 years of PvP nerf have taught them to do, change builds. Pugs will go back to trinity builds and your Mesmer is not going to the UW.

The farmer will not be affected, the qq’s will accomplish nothing, and the losers will be the casual players.

Since I don't PuG and don't use Ursan I don't care what they do to ursan but those that have been complaining you are getting what you wanted but I got a feeling you won’t like it. Yah, more qq threads.

upier · Jul 29, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If used correctly and professionally, then yes it should be able to "blow up" PvE - as it should be. You shouldn't have any problem blowing stuff up if you're a good player.

I don't remember many occasions in PvE where skills need to be used correctly or intelligently for things to blow up.
And with the standard being so low - I don't expect a huge change to the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because the AI baddies just as smart as the players, right?

I am guessing you disagree with my statement.
Which was that TNTF shows us how badly A.Net is interpreting the term "balance in PvE".
Which in connection with the first part of my post should mean I expect Ursan to be "balanced" in the same fashion.

roshanabey2 · Jul 29, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I am sorry the OP was to confussing. I am too dyslexic too understand any of that.........:s

Bassically what will happen after ursan? Who knows........

darkdreamr · Jul 29, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

The aggro system of WoW is terrible , you only need to press a skill to attract a monster. Maybe it's practical , but it certainly isn't more logical than GW's.

The biggest damage dealers attract the most aggro , that's why warriors and other physicals have the best dps (don't start a discussion about it pls) , thus the monsters hit the warriors and not the squishies. The monsters will attack their highest treat (read: the ones that damage them the most). Makes much more sense than WoW's aggro system.

A discussion about how that obsidian flesh tank has better dps than anyone else in the group? okaaaay. But honestly without going into the gory details, my point is just that some balance is needed along this direction if we are to escape the holy trinity. Ursan was always a mixed blessing for me because I hate the holy trinity, I think it's stale and boring. At least with Ursan, everyone got to be stale and boring without discrimination.